Hi guys I am new here, I want to do more than just 360x0 object2vr. I want the full 360x180 but having problem looking for something I can afford. Is there any after market or "do it yourself" set up that can help me do more raw's with stops for every 10 degrees. If not a least I can settle for 360x90. but I still need something to start with (equipment). Any suggestion? Thanks
John
360x180 object2vr
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PhotoSpherix
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John,
This is only my my thoughts on this, and I am sure a few others will have some insight, but here it goes.
Multi-row 360's are difficult, both from a technical standpoint and a hardware standpoint.
I will start with the hardware.
The device that is used is large.
It has to be fully adjustable so that the center point of the item is in the center of both a r/l rotation as well as an u/d rotation. This means that it needs to be fully adjustable from the point of view of the turntable. Now this gets more difficult in that the products that I shoot are different then the products you shoot. My medium multi-row rig that shoots products from 6in to 24 in is roughly 10ft x10ft x 10ft. My 16ft multi-row takes up a full studio that is 36ft x 36 ft x 16ft.
The rig that is used to create multi-row product 360's is nothing like the tripod heads to create a pano. It goes around the item(u/d) while the product rotates in the center. Making something out of a tripod and a few additional arms, just doesn't work. Well it will work, but you will manually have to adjust the camera angle to point at the product and this will add to the post production.
A homebrew version can be made, trust me I know, all of our rigs are built in-house. They do what we want to do, and not a one-size fits all creation. It takes time, knowledge and skill to get a rig made, I had others do most of it for me. I can say after the first one, the rest are easier. Over the last 12 years we have built many, and re-built even more. Here is a great place to start. http://www.peaceriverstudios.com/17_object/obindex.html. If you want to tackle it, this design is a great starting point. You can get most of the structural parts from just about anywhere. The only difficult part will be designing you rotating points for the arm. Another great design is the fotorobot design. It can work on so many different sizes, but it is not easy to make your own homebrew version.
From a manufacturer standpoint, you would either have it so adjustable that it would be difficult to use, or you would have so many different products based on sizes. You are not going to sell many devices due to cost of creation and total cost of shots to end customer.
Photography.
Now we get to the images and photography. It is pretty easy to shoot a 360 that has 10,20,40,80 images in a single rotation. You can control the lighting, the background comes out with a little work, but not too bad. Now take that and multiply it by lets say 10. We shoot a 20 shot per row 10 row full product 360. It is 200 images. Remember that the number of rows is half of the single rotation so that it spins both directions at the same speed. If a client wants a 36 shot per row it will be 18 rows, that is 648 images. That is a lot of post edit on it's own.
Now you need to add that the lighting is not going to be the same, and you are going to have much more post editing per row on a multi-row then you do on a single row. I am a firm believer that the lights always stay stationary. Otherwise, it is a strange "Fun House" view for the user.
The process is pretty easy from the stand point of photography. You set the object out on the turn table, move the camera to the top position, shoot a row, move the camera down shoot again. Until you get to the equator. Once you get there, you have to figure out a way to shoot through the turntable.
I will stop here. I can continue this if people are interested, but... the description is long, let alone the process. Multi-row 360's are great. I love them, when they come together they are just about as cool as sliced bread, but there is a reason why not many people make them and the manufactuers that make the rigs have come and gone through the years.
Sorry about the rant, I just needed to get away from a post edit project that was about to have me put my head in an operating oven.
This is only my my thoughts on this, and I am sure a few others will have some insight, but here it goes.
Multi-row 360's are difficult, both from a technical standpoint and a hardware standpoint.
I will start with the hardware.
The device that is used is large.
It has to be fully adjustable so that the center point of the item is in the center of both a r/l rotation as well as an u/d rotation. This means that it needs to be fully adjustable from the point of view of the turntable. Now this gets more difficult in that the products that I shoot are different then the products you shoot. My medium multi-row rig that shoots products from 6in to 24 in is roughly 10ft x10ft x 10ft. My 16ft multi-row takes up a full studio that is 36ft x 36 ft x 16ft.
The rig that is used to create multi-row product 360's is nothing like the tripod heads to create a pano. It goes around the item(u/d) while the product rotates in the center. Making something out of a tripod and a few additional arms, just doesn't work. Well it will work, but you will manually have to adjust the camera angle to point at the product and this will add to the post production.
A homebrew version can be made, trust me I know, all of our rigs are built in-house. They do what we want to do, and not a one-size fits all creation. It takes time, knowledge and skill to get a rig made, I had others do most of it for me. I can say after the first one, the rest are easier. Over the last 12 years we have built many, and re-built even more. Here is a great place to start. http://www.peaceriverstudios.com/17_object/obindex.html. If you want to tackle it, this design is a great starting point. You can get most of the structural parts from just about anywhere. The only difficult part will be designing you rotating points for the arm. Another great design is the fotorobot design. It can work on so many different sizes, but it is not easy to make your own homebrew version.
From a manufacturer standpoint, you would either have it so adjustable that it would be difficult to use, or you would have so many different products based on sizes. You are not going to sell many devices due to cost of creation and total cost of shots to end customer.
Photography.
Now we get to the images and photography. It is pretty easy to shoot a 360 that has 10,20,40,80 images in a single rotation. You can control the lighting, the background comes out with a little work, but not too bad. Now take that and multiply it by lets say 10. We shoot a 20 shot per row 10 row full product 360. It is 200 images. Remember that the number of rows is half of the single rotation so that it spins both directions at the same speed. If a client wants a 36 shot per row it will be 18 rows, that is 648 images. That is a lot of post edit on it's own.
Now you need to add that the lighting is not going to be the same, and you are going to have much more post editing per row on a multi-row then you do on a single row. I am a firm believer that the lights always stay stationary. Otherwise, it is a strange "Fun House" view for the user.
The process is pretty easy from the stand point of photography. You set the object out on the turn table, move the camera to the top position, shoot a row, move the camera down shoot again. Until you get to the equator. Once you get there, you have to figure out a way to shoot through the turntable.
I will stop here. I can continue this if people are interested, but... the description is long, let alone the process. Multi-row 360's are great. I love them, when they come together they are just about as cool as sliced bread, but there is a reason why not many people make them and the manufactuers that make the rigs have come and gone through the years.
Sorry about the rant, I just needed to get away from a post edit project that was about to have me put my head in an operating oven.
Hi PhotoSpherix
Thanks for all the info and it helps. But I think I will just do a single raw since it seems too much work to set up, shoot and post production. However I do want to know how do you shoot the bottom part of the product? (turn is up side down maybe)
John
Thanks for all the info and it helps. But I think I will just do a single raw since it seems too much work to set up, shoot and post production. However I do want to know how do you shoot the bottom part of the product? (turn is up side down maybe)
John
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PhotoSpherix
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- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:45 pm
- Location: Beech Grove
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Part Two.
Now we have the equipment to hold our camera, we have the gear to turn or product. A client called and they want a product shot. In this example, I got something out of my camera bag to shoot. It is a simple 15 minute charger.
I was lucky in that it is similar from top to bottom. We now have to rig it in a way that we can shoot it right side up, then upside down. Like I said, my example is easy. It has two flat surfaces. We position the product in the center of the turntable. Now we have to bring the turntable up to the center of the second axis. That way the product does not shift when it tilts up or down. KEEP IN MIND. This is harder and harder the smaller the object is. A 5 gallon bucket is easy, but a Barbecue grill is even easier. On the other hand, a battery would be really difficult.
Ok we are rigged, and our lighting looks good for a single row. We run a test shot, and everything is centered and well lit. Now we run a few test of the vertical rotation. Ok close enough. the lighting is consistant. We have a couple spots that are a little hot, but this whole thing is a balancing act. Back to working with lighting a little.
Now, its right. Minimum shadows and only a couple extreme angles that have a burn out.
Time to shoot.
Start at the top of the product. In this case shoot 20. Move to the next angle. Shoot 20, repeat this down to the equator. Now we have 120 images shot(6 rows). Ok, we need a few more pieces of kit to get the next part done. Use three blocks to "keep the position of the product on the turntable". In this case it was rear, left and front. I use clear plexi blocks, but that is because I have them. So we have the object marked in the center and we are ready to flip the product. On the rig that I used for this shoot, it has to be flipped 180 from stage front. With our blocks, we are able to keep it where it was and it is still in the EXACT spot it was before. With that done, we move the camera up to the next position. Since the equator was shot, we do not need to shoot it again.
220 images in the can:
Now all of the images are in the can, well today, they are in the memory card. It is time for post production.
We have been in the studio for about an hour to hour and a half at this point. We better take a moment to rest though. Go have a break, the time is going to add up real soon.
Post Editing.
We all do it different, and that is part of what I will not tell you. I keep it close to the vest. What I will say is that you have know you have to crop the images. All 220 of them minding both the right/left center as well as the top/bottom center. Some people stack the images in Photoshop, others work with the individual images. You should work on any lighting changes that you want to do now as well. This way you have all 220 images identical in position and lighting. You might want to test the files in a 360 viewer at this point.
OK you you have some shadows, a little dust but the rotation is good. Now we take the folder of images and work on it. We take all of the right side up images and put them in a top folder. The Flipped images go in a BOTTOM folder. HERE IS THE TRICK. Take the first image from the top folder. It should be position 1 in row 1. Open it in photoshop. Also open the first image of the last row of the bottom folder.(think of it as North Pole and South Pole). Put this image as another layer in the first opened image. Set the layer to 50% that way you can see through it. Rotate the top layer and see how it lines up. If is close move forward, if it is not. RESHOOT
So it was close. now we need to take the first image of the second to last row of the top folder and compare it to the first image of the bottom row. Load them up in Photoshop and put the bottom image over the top image and rotate then compare. Lets hope it is close. We will say you are ready to run with it. Now you need to rotate every image in the bottom folder 180 degrees and save them out.
Load them into object2vr. Now remember you can not just drop them in. Make a new project. 11 rows 20 images. Add all of the "Top" folder images. Now you are going to have to hand drop all of the bottom images. I am on a mac and I get to icon view in the finder. I make my icons real small so that I can have a full row from the rig, show up as a full row in my finder window. Now anther trick. The rotation is backwards on the "bottom" images. Remember we rotated the images. So the pattern for each row is... 1,20,19,18,17,16,15,..3,2 end of row. The reason for this is that you have keyed everything on the first image, and the rotation moves backwards so you go to 20 next. This is why I am in icon view, I can drop in all of the files one by one so that the order is correct.
OK we can make a 360 from top to bottom now. Run your tests through Object2vr.
We should have something about like this...
Rough edit stage one.
The next installment will be what to do with the mess we have
Now we have the equipment to hold our camera, we have the gear to turn or product. A client called and they want a product shot. In this example, I got something out of my camera bag to shoot. It is a simple 15 minute charger.
I was lucky in that it is similar from top to bottom. We now have to rig it in a way that we can shoot it right side up, then upside down. Like I said, my example is easy. It has two flat surfaces. We position the product in the center of the turntable. Now we have to bring the turntable up to the center of the second axis. That way the product does not shift when it tilts up or down. KEEP IN MIND. This is harder and harder the smaller the object is. A 5 gallon bucket is easy, but a Barbecue grill is even easier. On the other hand, a battery would be really difficult.
Ok we are rigged, and our lighting looks good for a single row. We run a test shot, and everything is centered and well lit. Now we run a few test of the vertical rotation. Ok close enough. the lighting is consistant. We have a couple spots that are a little hot, but this whole thing is a balancing act. Back to working with lighting a little.
Now, its right. Minimum shadows and only a couple extreme angles that have a burn out.
Time to shoot.
Start at the top of the product. In this case shoot 20. Move to the next angle. Shoot 20, repeat this down to the equator. Now we have 120 images shot(6 rows). Ok, we need a few more pieces of kit to get the next part done. Use three blocks to "keep the position of the product on the turntable". In this case it was rear, left and front. I use clear plexi blocks, but that is because I have them. So we have the object marked in the center and we are ready to flip the product. On the rig that I used for this shoot, it has to be flipped 180 from stage front. With our blocks, we are able to keep it where it was and it is still in the EXACT spot it was before. With that done, we move the camera up to the next position. Since the equator was shot, we do not need to shoot it again.
220 images in the can:
Now all of the images are in the can, well today, they are in the memory card. It is time for post production.
We have been in the studio for about an hour to hour and a half at this point. We better take a moment to rest though. Go have a break, the time is going to add up real soon.
Post Editing.
We all do it different, and that is part of what I will not tell you. I keep it close to the vest. What I will say is that you have know you have to crop the images. All 220 of them minding both the right/left center as well as the top/bottom center. Some people stack the images in Photoshop, others work with the individual images. You should work on any lighting changes that you want to do now as well. This way you have all 220 images identical in position and lighting. You might want to test the files in a 360 viewer at this point.
OK you you have some shadows, a little dust but the rotation is good. Now we take the folder of images and work on it. We take all of the right side up images and put them in a top folder. The Flipped images go in a BOTTOM folder. HERE IS THE TRICK. Take the first image from the top folder. It should be position 1 in row 1. Open it in photoshop. Also open the first image of the last row of the bottom folder.(think of it as North Pole and South Pole). Put this image as another layer in the first opened image. Set the layer to 50% that way you can see through it. Rotate the top layer and see how it lines up. If is close move forward, if it is not. RESHOOT
So it was close. now we need to take the first image of the second to last row of the top folder and compare it to the first image of the bottom row. Load them up in Photoshop and put the bottom image over the top image and rotate then compare. Lets hope it is close. We will say you are ready to run with it. Now you need to rotate every image in the bottom folder 180 degrees and save them out.
Load them into object2vr. Now remember you can not just drop them in. Make a new project. 11 rows 20 images. Add all of the "Top" folder images. Now you are going to have to hand drop all of the bottom images. I am on a mac and I get to icon view in the finder. I make my icons real small so that I can have a full row from the rig, show up as a full row in my finder window. Now anther trick. The rotation is backwards on the "bottom" images. Remember we rotated the images. So the pattern for each row is... 1,20,19,18,17,16,15,..3,2 end of row. The reason for this is that you have keyed everything on the first image, and the rotation moves backwards so you go to 20 next. This is why I am in icon view, I can drop in all of the files one by one so that the order is correct.
OK we can make a 360 from top to bottom now. Run your tests through Object2vr.
We should have something about like this...
Rough edit stage one.
The next installment will be what to do with the mess we have
-
PhotoSpherix
- Posts: 314
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 9:45 pm
- Location: Beech Grove
- Contact:
Ok, I have a couple minutes to continue the process.
We now have 220 images that are shot and in the computer. We have setup our object2vr project and we can save the file. Close Object2vr and open it back up with all of the images still in the project. Now we can make edits to the images and test them. We see that we have a shadow on the ceiling and floor, that we are going to have to clean up. Also there is a lot of dust on the product. And yes it was dusted off before I shot it, but it always shows up. Keep in mind, this was just a product out of the camera bag, so we have some product issues as well, a few scratches and such that we are going to have to edit.
I start at the bottom and move to the top. To make sure that the same thing is done to every image, I do a single task at a time and then go to the next task. So, I open ALL of the bottom images. The lower 10 rows in photoshop. I then walk through them and clean out the shadow. Once I am done, I test it in object2vr. Next I remove the shadow from the table top. Eleven rows edited. Test again.
Second step Clean-up
Now that I do not have the distractions, I know what errors I see in the product. So open up all 220 images and clean dust n scratches.
Finally after to many hours of work, we have a completed 360 of the product.
Final Multi-row 360
I still see more post edits I could do in it, but for this project, I will call it complete.
I would love feedback guys.
We now have 220 images that are shot and in the computer. We have setup our object2vr project and we can save the file. Close Object2vr and open it back up with all of the images still in the project. Now we can make edits to the images and test them. We see that we have a shadow on the ceiling and floor, that we are going to have to clean up. Also there is a lot of dust on the product. And yes it was dusted off before I shot it, but it always shows up. Keep in mind, this was just a product out of the camera bag, so we have some product issues as well, a few scratches and such that we are going to have to edit.
I start at the bottom and move to the top. To make sure that the same thing is done to every image, I do a single task at a time and then go to the next task. So, I open ALL of the bottom images. The lower 10 rows in photoshop. I then walk through them and clean out the shadow. Once I am done, I test it in object2vr. Next I remove the shadow from the table top. Eleven rows edited. Test again.
Second step Clean-up
Now that I do not have the distractions, I know what errors I see in the product. So open up all 220 images and clean dust n scratches.
Finally after to many hours of work, we have a completed 360 of the product.
Final Multi-row 360
I still see more post edits I could do in it, but for this project, I will call it complete.
I would love feedback guys.